Some debates on Total War forum with history.

You guys should go to the official Total War forum once in a while, I love it there.
So there is a thread in the Total War forums called "Favourite Faction".
So I am reading the thread and here is how it went:

Quote :

the king of the south wrote:
Culture: Byzantium, love the roman empire, and they are their descendants.

Quote :

Konstantine wrote:
Ummm, not entirely. Many rich families who lived in Rome flocked to the city of Byzantium (later Constantinople) so yes there were descendants of Rome. But the Byzantine empire was more of a mix of peoples. To back that up, throughout the Byzantine Empires history, people have come into the empire, slavs came in from the north and in the east were the eastern peoples and some eventualy came into the empire because of Muslim invasions and so on. The main group of the Byzantine Empire were Greek partly because of their culture and their influence which was adopted by the other populations in other parts of the empire.. Roman Law, Greek Culture. I forget who it was that said this but he said the famous quote that "Greece has conquered her conquerer." Her conquerer is of course Rome. But why did he say this? Greek culture dominated Rome. This is coming from a Roman. Possibly a Roman philosopher I don't remember. Greek culture dominated the Roman world. The Roman culture borrowed heavily on Greek Culture and Etruscan but more so Greek. The Romans borrowed the Greek gods and goddesses. Rome borrowed from Greek Architecture and so on... The language of the Byzantine Empire was Greek. The two main Christian Churches of today (The Roman Catholic Church, and the Eastern Orthodox Church) were once one until the 11th century, the Catholics spoke Latin in the west, the Eastern Orthodox church speaks Greek and they both spoke these languages even while they were still one church. My point to all this was that no, the Byzantine Culture was not Roman, it was Greek Culture but it did no doubt have Roman influence. People from around the world came to Constantinople because of it's richness in culture. It was a major cultural center. I am not saying that Rome had no culture of it's own as it did have major influence in the world, they did built off of other cultures, but I am mainly pointing out that the Byzantine Empire was Greek. It is also known to people as the "Medieval Greek Empire". As for descendants of Rome, there were descendants but really not that much compared to the whole population of the Byzantine Empire and where the empires borders extended to. Also, for Roman history, the Greeks did have settlements in many parts of Italy. There were settlements in Sicily as well.
I read a book called The Early History of Rome by Titus Livius and I didn't know this before I read the book but I came to find that the Romans were originally of Trojan descent. Trojans had Greek Culture. If you need proof I could type a couple of parts or a summary from the book. Or you could just buy the book and read it yourself. It is a good book so I would reccomend it.

Feel free to point out mistakes and post corrections guys.
Link to total war forum:
http://www.totalwarforums.com/

Get involved there guys!! It is great!!

Hey Konst, good to see you active on the history section of the TW world. Anyways, as I am sure you could guess, I have found a couple of mistakes. First of all, lets start with Livius shall we? Livius was a Roman Historian, and as it has been said, history is written by the Victors, where people claim descendence from is completely unrealistic. The Spartans for instance claimed descendce from Hercules (mythological character) Alexander the Great claimed a heritage from Achilles (again, ancient Greek Hero who's deeds have been exagerated). Next lets move onto the Language issue, Romans and Greeks freely borrowed from each other (culture in Rome from the Greeks, and Architectural Skills in Greece from the Romans and etc.) But language was another issue entirely. Romans knew Latin almost as well as they knew Greek, and vice versa with the Greeks. (Julius Caesar' last words where Kai Su Teknon which means "And you my child?" in Greek rather then something along the lines of E TU MIHI INFANS "and you my child?" in Latin) Thirdly, Greek Culture did not dominate the Roman World, as a matter of fact, Roman Culture dominated the world (duh....) Fourthly, many Roman Patrician Families did not flock to Constantinople, many of them stayed in Rome and most died when Attila, the Celts, and lastly the Lombards reached Rome, and met their fate as Romans should.

Also on a little Language note, Titus Livius is actually pronounced like Titus (duh) Liwius (V's in Latin are pronounced as W's)

Imperator_Alexander wrote:

Hey Konst, good to see you active on the history section of the TW world. Anyways, as I am sure you could guess, I have found a couple of mistakes. First of all, lets start with Livius shall we? Livius was a Roman Historian, and as it has been said, history is written by the Victors, where people claim descendence from is completely unrealistic. The Spartans for instance claimed descendce from Hercules (mythological character) Alexander the Great claimed a heritage from Achilles (again, ancient Greek Hero who's deeds have been exagerated). Next lets move onto the Language issue, Romans and Greeks freely borrowed from each other (culture in Rome from the Greeks, and Architectural Skills in Greece from the Romans and etc.) But language was another issue entirely. Romans knew Latin almost as well as they knew Greek, and vice versa with the Greeks. (Julius Caesar' last words where Kai Su Teknon which means "And you my child?" in Greek rather then something along the lines of E TU MIHI INFANS "and you my child?" in Latin) Thirdly, Greek Culture did not dominate the Roman World, as a matter of fact, Roman Culture dominated the world (duh....) Fourthly, many Roman Patrician Families did not flock to Constantinople, many of them stayed in Rome and most died when Attila, the Celts, and lastly the Lombards reached Rome, and met their fate as Romans should.

Also on a little Language note, Titus Livius is actually pronounced like Titus (duh) Liwius (V's in Latin are pronounced as W's)

Fourthly, many Roman Patrician Families did not flock to Constantinople"

I have read a book, and it said that they did. In fact, I have read 2 books about Byzantine history, and it said they did. Many does not mean almost all of them, that could mean half to less than half, a lot stayed yes but many did go.

Livius was a Roman Historian, and as it has been said, history is written by the Victors, where people claim descendence from is completely unrealistic.

I knew that Livius was a Roman Historian considering I did say that I have been reading a book called The Early History of Rome by Titus Livius
But what do you mean by the rest of that statement?
Are you saying that what I said about Romans are originally Trojans is not true? What did real history have to do with mythology? I don't care what the Spartans claimed or what Alexander claimed in this debate. I am talking about the originallity of Romans.


Thirdly, Greek Culture did not dominate the Roman World, as a matter of fact, Roman Culture dominated the world (duh....)

I will believe that when I see it. I want some facts.

The Mediterranean sea was a Roman lake at one time. There is not a place in the world that was not affected by Rome. Rome had great influence upon the world. I want you to give me some information on Roman culture and give me the source.

Greeks had their own great architecture.
You should read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Architecture

Also on a little Language note, Titus Livius is actually pronounced like Titus (duh) Liwius (V's in Latin are pronounced as W's)

That's a good piece of info I didn't know.

Romans knew Latin almost as well as they knew Greek, and vice versa with the Greeks.

That's true. Especially true when Romans CONTROLLED Greece and almost the whole of Europe and had their own private lake the Mediterranean. Roman Law is what dominated the world. Their culture is more borrowed than original.
But in my opinion, the Romans who adopt (or borrow) culture, eventually, the culture that was borrowed would be more original because depending on what type of culture such as ceremonies and such, they could eventually become customs and so it would be more part of their own culture.

I don't know if you can understand that but I tried to explain that as best I could.

It is fact though that Rome relied heavily on Etruscan and Greek Culture.

Why do these history discussions always have to turn in to some sort of arguement about who knows more.

lol I am not really argueing but I see your point. I just use it as an excuse to post because I am too lazy to post history by myself without opposition. Meaning I am just too lazy to give a "report".

hahaha, whos argueing? Ok, Konst, you mentioned Roman Law Code, did you hear about the Table of 12 Laws (or something of the sort) that was a purely Roman Invention sure it borrowed from the Etruscans, but only because they at that time where a minority of the world. The Romans did not descend from Trojans as that would be nearly impossible as they would have needed to flee the city at the same time as the Greeks fled Troy. As for Roman Culture, dude look around, the Arch was a momument mastered by the Romans and the Dome was another Roman invention that are still used today. Roman culture also was mainly Military in nature (hence the name Rome Total War) as they spent more of their imperial treasure on military campaigns and legionarie payments then anything else. Thats what I am talking about.

I am not saying that the Romans are not in debt to the Greeks, but it is also true that the Romans took Greek Archicture and improved it

Here is a site for Roman Culture (I know its Wikipedia and I have read it and it is rather accurate, just some mis-translations.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_culture#Historical_and_cultural_context

So I am not sure what we are really "debating" (just to stay away from Hannibals feeling that we are argueing) as we both are really agreeing on it...

Imperator_Alexander wrote:

hahaha, whos argueing? Ok, Konst, you mentioned Roman Law Code, did you hear about the Table of 12 Laws (or something of the sort) that was a purely Roman Invention sure it borrowed from the Etruscans, but only because they at that time where a minority of the world. The Romans did not descend from Trojans as that would be nearly impossible as they would have needed to flee the city at the same time as the Greeks fled Troy. As for Roman Culture, dude look around, the Arch was a momument mastered by the Romans and the Dome was another Roman invention that are still used today. Roman culture also was mainly Military in nature (hence the name Rome Total War) as they spent more of their imperial treasure on military campaigns and legionarie payments then anything else. Thats what I am talking about.

I am not saying that the Romans are not in debt to the Greeks, but it is also true that the Romans took Greek Archicture and improved it

Here is a site for Roman Culture (I know its Wikipedia and I have read it and it is rather accurate, just some mis-translations.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_culture#Historical_and_cultural_context

So I am not sure what we are really "debating" (just to stay away from Hannibals feeling that we are argueing) as we both are really agreeing on it...

Let's just say the world would be nothing like it is today without Rome or Greece.

Ill say more later because right now I don't have too much time.

The Romans did not descend from Trojans as that would be nearly impossible as they would have needed to flee the city at the same time as the Greeks fled Troy.

Two words for that: King Aeneas
I will type it up for you then I will post it here to prove it. Then I will get some quotes from people in the Total War forum that said the same thing.
A Roman himself says the origin.


As for Roman Culture, dude look around, the Arch was a momument mastered by the Romans and the Dome was another Roman invention that are still used today. Roman culture also was mainly Military in nature (hence the name Rome Total War) as they spent more of their imperial treasure on military campaigns and legionarie payments then anything else. Thats what I am talking about.
Well duh! But that is just architecture. I don't want to go far as to say that architecture had no influence at all in the world but architecture is architecture. There is a lot more to it than just architecture.

culture also was mainly Military in nature

I don't know a whole lot on the culture of the military so could you get me some info? Or is it in that page of the link you gave? I can't read it right now but I will.
I know who can more than match the Roman Legions:
Spartans.

I am not argueing I just love a good debate, that is why I posted here because I knew Alexander would post.


they at that time where a minority of the world.

I love reading about how the Romans beat everyone up around them when they pretty much had 1 city which was Rome. The Romans would capture villages and bring them into Rome. They expanded and their power grew. There were soldiers who were so brave in the Roman army that there was one time where Rome was about to lose a battle that one mans bravery entirely turned that around.

So I am not sure what we are really "debating" (just to stay away from Hannibals feeling that we are argueing) as we both are really agreeing on it...

We aren't argueing that's for sure. Agreeing for the most part yes.

I have more to say but no time so I will do it later.

Making this thread was my excuse to getting out of laziness and giving you guys some history.

(as long as they stay polite) theres nothing wrong with good friendly debates, I actualy get caught reading each and every word you both post We all can learn from it.

After the fall of Troy the Greeks kept up hostilities against all the Trojans except Aeneas and Antenor. These two men had worked consistently for peace and restoration of Helen, and for that reason, added to certain personal connections of long standing, they were allowed to go unmolested. Each had various adventures: Antenor joined forces with the Eneti, who had been driven out of Paphlagonia and, having lost their king, Pylaemenes, at Troy, wanted someone to lead them as well as somewhere to settle. He penetrated to the head of the Adriatic and expelled the Euganei, a tribe living between the Alps and the sea, and occupied that territory with a mixed population of Trojans and Eneti. The spot where they landed is called Troy and the neighbouring country the Trojan district. The combined peoples came to be known as Venetians.
Aeneas was forced into exile by similar troubles; he, however, was destined to lay the foundations of a greater future. He went first to Macedonia, then in his search for a new home sailed to Sicily, and from Sicily to the territory of Laurentum. This part of Italy too, like the spot where Antenor landed, is known as Troy. Aeneas's men in the course of their almost interminable wanderings had lost all they possessed except their ships and their swords; once on shore, they set about scouring the countryside for what they could find, and while thus engaged they were met by a force of armed natives who, under their king Latinus, came hurrying up from the town and the surrounding country to protect themselves from the invaders. There are two versions of what happened next: according to one, there was a fight in which Latinus was beaten; he then came to terms with Aeneas and cemented the alliance by giving him his daughter in marriage. According to the other, the battle was about to begin when Latinus before the trumpets could sound the charge, came forward with his captains and invited the foreign leaders to a parley. He then asked Aeneas who his men were and where they had come from, why they had left their homeland and what was their object on landing in Laurentian territory. He was told in reply that his men were Trojans, their leader Aeneas, the sun of Anchises and Venus; that their native town had been burnt to the ground and now they were fugitives in search of some place where they could build a new town to settle in. Latinus, hearing their story, was so deeply impressed by their leader's high courage either for peace or war, that he gave Aeneas his hand in pledge of friendship from that moment onward. A treaty was made; the two armies exchanged signs of mutual respect; Aeneas accepted the hospitality of Latinus, who gave him his daughter in marriage, thus further comfirming the treaty of alliance by a private and domestic bond solemnly entered into in the presence of the Gods of his Hearth.
The Trojans could no longer doubt that at last their travels were over and that they had found a permanent home. They began to build a settlement, which Aeneas named Lavinium after his wife Lavinia. A child was soon born of the marriage: a boy, who was given the name Ascanius.
The Trojans and Latins were soon jointly involved in war. Turnus, prince of the Rutuli, to whom Latinus's daughter Lavinius had been pledged before Aeneas's arrival, angered by the insult of having to step down in favour of a stranger, attacked the combined forces of Aeneas and Latinus. Both sides suffered in the subsequent struggle: the Rutuli were defeated, but the victors lost their leader Latinus.

Taken from The Early History of Rome, by Titus Livius

Just so you know, Romulus and Remus are descendants of Aeneas. I forgot to mention that Romans were actually a mix of Latins and Trojans.

To be continued... Maybe, it was such a pain typing all that.

Wow, when I look back at the whole thread, we went from Byzantium, to culture, to who the Romans were. lol

I have a new post above ^^^

Well, if you want to read the whole thing on Total War forums you are free to do so and I would recommend you guys to do so. The topic name is "Were the Romans really descended from the Trojans and Latins?" The thread is in the Off-topic forum of the Total War forums.

Konst, the Romans again where not a blend of culture mate. To be Roman your family had to be born in the city of Rome, which as you said was founed by Romulus who was a descendant of Aeneas. So, the Romans could not be a Trojan as the city was founded by a descendant of Aeneas, but he did not know he was Trojan as he was left in the woods to die. (Mythological and Literary note, the Word "Lupus" in Latin which most translate to mean Wolf can also be translated to mean Prostitute.) So in reality if going by the language, the Romans where nothing but farmers who overthrew the Etruscans and made their own culture in a city who's boundaries where formed by Romulus.

Another note, according to a news article I was reading a while back, historians believe that the cave where Romulus and Remus where raised by "Lupus" (im leaving my own personal translation out of this) has been found under the site of the Imperial Palace on the Capitoline Hill.

Good Stuff guys !

lol, once again... GO TO Total War Forums for all of the info.